Monday, July 11, 2005

Remembering the other victims of terror

Update:

Comments on this post are now closed (the comments section on previous and future posts remain open). Unfortunately, one of our serious, right-wing bigots - jeff (or Jeff G*** - name removed at the request of another innocent person bearing this name - as he is known in Edmonton) - has decided that this is the appropriate place to post anti-Muslim diatriabes and lies. Well, he's had his free speech. I've tolerated him and his filth for three days. I will no longer tolerate someone who appears to condone murder and repression simply because the victims are not Christians. Read the comments and judge for yourself. If you think I'm out of line, let me know. If Mr. G*** would like to continue to spew this garbage, he can start his own blog.

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While London bravely recovers from the July 7th attack on the tube, it is appropriate that we remember that terror and terrorism take many forms and doesn't discriminate. So while some pundits are ready to blame Islam and Muslims for terrorism in general, let us reflect on this day:

July 11, 1995, in Srebrenica, Bosnia, more than 7,000 unarmed Muslim men where murdered in cold blood by Serbian paramilitaries under the command of General Radko Mladic and by the orders of Radovan Karadzic and problably then-Serbian President Slovodan Milosovic, who is currently standing trial in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Mladic and Karadzic are still at large somewhere in the Serb areas of Bosnia.

The 7,000 were not combatants. They were the innocent men - brothers, fathers and grandfathers, all aged 12 to 77 - that had fled to this so-called 'UN Safe Zone' with their families in an effort to avoid the atrocities and ethnic cleansing occurring in Bosnia. In the days preceding the massacre, Srebrenica was surrounded and shelled by the Serbs. The small contingent of of Dutch peacekeepers are threatened with death and the slaughter of the those Muslims already in Serb hands. Lightly armed and getting little or no support from the UN HQ (an airstrike was delayed by 4 to 6 hours because the Dutch commander filled out the wrong form when making the request), the greatly out-gunned and outnumbered Dutch relented, and tried as best they could to rescue people and to simply bear witness for the future (counting buses carrying the Muslim men away, counting the dead in the hills after the Serbs shelled refugees as they tried to escape).

These people were killed because of ethnic hatred and as a message to the rest of the Muslims in Bosnia. These horrendous deaths are as much an act of terrorism against the Muslims of Bosnia (and Europe) as subway bombs or airplanes flying into buildings. Remember, terrorism isn't a following of one particular people or religion, it is a cold military tactic: kill or maim innocent people, randomly or indiscriminately, for political ends.

Today as we search for answers in London and elsewhere, let us honour the memory or innocent people - European Muslims, trying to simply live and raise families in peace - who also paid the price of terrorism and religious and ethnic hatred. Let us not, in our anger and grief, forget them or let complacency and narrow minded thinking allow such an outrage to happen again.

37 Comments:

At 4:04 PM, Blogger Paul Vincent said...

That's not terrorism, it is actually worse than that. They didn't kill those 7,000 to try and get someone else to do something. They killed those 7,000 because they wanted them and all their people dead.

 
At 4:42 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Paul,

It is different terrorism than the bombings, but it is a terrorist tactic nonetheless. They killed to 7,000 not only to have them dead, but they allowed the women and children to escape to tell the tale, to let the Bosnian Muslims know what happened. To terrorize them into leaving Bosnia.

Now they could have simply killed all of them. Even the Dutch. But what they wanted was two-fold: dead potential combatants (because 12-year-old boys grow up) and screaming women and Dutch Peacekeeper to tell the story. Hell they even filmed it, so they could repeat this horrid message over and over. It also seems to make them unstoppable monsters.

This is a much larger scale version of "kill every other guy sleeping in the barracks" routine that the Viet Cong would do to the ARVN soldiers.

The whole war there was essential terrorist in nature - there is no strategic value in sniping civilians in Sarajevo. But as a terroist tatic, it works.


I guess I also want people who are talking about Muslims as if they are inhuman and the source of all terrorism in the last 20 years, to think again. I want some of those angry folks that think the West has cornered the market on being the victims of terrorism, that maybe their perceived enemies have suffered as well.

 
At 9:30 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"I want some of those angry folks that think the West has cornered the market on being the victims of terrorism, that maybe their perceived enemies have suffered as well. "

I would expect nothing less of you Mike. Except, none of the muslims that are in Al Queda are fighting the Serbs! They are fighting the west. They crashed planes into the twin towers.....WHY? What did those innocent American civilians do to them? Listen, nobody is saying what the Serbs did was justified, but how can you equate Serbian actions as justification against western targets?

 
At 10:39 PM, Blogger Kevin said...

Terrorism or genocide, whatever you want to call it, it is still an evil scurge on the earth. Thanks for the post. An excellent reminder that we have a lot of work to do to remove the stain of human cruelty.

kgp

 
At 10:51 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Kevin, I'm afraid that Islam seems to be a scourge rooted in submission and warfare. It was also born during the Crusades and this 'lingo' is still used by muslim terrorists today to justify their evil against infidel Christians and Jews. This war has just begun; I hope everyone knows where they stand and what they stand for.

 
At 8:06 AM, Blogger Mike said...

Jeff, stop being an ass and read my post again. I was not justifying action against western targets. I was equating them. The terror of the people in the twin towers is no less or more evil than the terror in Srbrenica. Terrorism is not innate to a people or a religion. It is a tatic of war and everyone, including Muslims has suffered.

It is no less terrorism when 17 Afghan villagers die when their wedding is bombed.

So, jeff, instead of using this opportunity to spout your anti-Muslim bigotry, why don't you think of way to stop the cycle of death and suffering that perhaps DOESN'T require the US marines...do ya think you can do that?

Do you think its possible that some radicals joined terror cells because of what happened in Srebrenica?

 
At 8:46 AM, Blogger ALW said...

The people responsible for 9/11, Bali/Madrid/London bombings are not Muslims. They are fundamentalist Islamic fascists. They are no more "Muslim" than crackpots like David Koresh or Jim Jones are "Christians".

 
At 9:41 AM, Blogger Mike said...

Thanks, ALW. That's exactly right.

More people out there should realize that.

 
At 9:57 AM, Blogger Brad said...

ALW, that was perfectly put. But it will fall on deaf ears on the right, I fear. It's much easier to raise and maintain the ignorant right's fear of Muslims when they're thought of in numbers like 1.5 to 2 billion rather than the comparitively miniscule numbers that these extremists represent.

 
At 1:19 PM, Blogger ALW said...

brad,

Well, I'm on the right so you have at least one listener here.

It's certainly tragic and distasteful that some people are too ignorant to draw the distinction between specific individuals and broad groups, but I wouldn't blame mainstream politicians of any stripe for that. Bush in particular has been very very specific and careful to not attack Islam or Muslims in general.

Also, it's interesting to note that this exact problem of overgeneralizing about "the West"/capitalism/America which leads some people to sympathize with the objectives, if not the means, of the terrorists. Given the evidence - that these people are willing to kill scores of innocent people in the blink of an eye - I would be much more concerned about that.

 
At 2:12 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Maybe you guys should read the Koran and see for yourselves what is written. Do some research, please......

 
At 2:18 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Read and Think:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/09/do09.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/07/09/ixop.html

 
At 3:06 PM, Blogger Mike said...

jeff,

Have YOU read the Koran? How about the Bible? If you have please enlighten us and tell us how it has bearing on what the majority of modern Muslims believe. I mean, I can quote passages from the Bible that should allow polygamy, slavery and incest. That certainly doesn't mean the majority of Christians think this stuff is ok - quite the contrary.

Where is the Ghandi of Christianity, jeff? And why aren't you following him? If you require the Muslim world to be held to such a high standard, why aren't you living up to it?

Isn't a large group of major Mulsim clerics condemning terrorism, Al Queda and Osama bin Laden enough for you?

http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/friedman-wrong-about-muslims-again-and.html

When will you be happy, jeff, when there ar no more Muslims left?

Enough of your silly, anti-Muslim rants, m-kay? Go away and come back when you have something intelligent to say.

 
At 8:17 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch-Moroccan man confessed in court on Tuesday to murdering a filmmaker critical of Islam last year, breaking his silence over a killing that fanned religious and racial tension in the Netherlands.

Mohammed Bouyeri was accused of killing Theo van Gogh as he cycled to work in Amsterdam on Nov. 2, 2004.* He was charged with shooting and stabbing Van Gogh before slashing his throat and pinning a note to his body with a knife in broad daylight.*

 
At 8:58 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"Have YOU read the Koran? How about the Bible?"

Yes I've read enough of the Koran to know that complete submission to Allah's will coupled with the persecution and destruction of those who do not 'aspire to Allah's will' are the main tenets.
Compare this with the Bible:

"Some will counter that there are plenty of equally nasty dictums in the Old Testament. This is true - though it is surely significant that they are very much harder to find in the New Testament. History is full of violent deeds done in the name of the Christian God.

But it is an important fact about Christianity in the past two or three centuries that it has conducted a great reinterpretation of these texts and of how the faithful should follow them. The struggle against the enemy in the Book of Joshua, say, or in Judges is now seen as a strictly spiritual one. The idea that these are divine 007 licences to kill has been explicitly repudiated.

Has the equivalent happened in Islam? Certainly, most Muslim leaders advocate peace and most are surely sincere in doing so. But push a bit harder, and you encounter some interesting problems."


"I mean, I can quote passages from the Bible that should allow polygamy, slavery and incest. That certainly doesn't mean the majority of Christians think this stuff is ok - quite the contrary."

These are tales rooted in the Old Testament. You do realize that Christians follow the New Testament, where none of these practices were acceptable or condoned?

"Where is the Ghandi of Christianity, jeff? And why aren't you following him?"

I would follow the Pope(Ghandi) if I were Catholic but I'm Protestant.
I wasn't aware that Protestants needed a spiritual leader, other than Jesus'? Are we committing suicide bombings and are our societies and civilizations lying on the brink of ruin? Please answer that Mike.

"If you require the Muslim world to be held to such a high standard, why aren't you living up to it?"

Not killing innocent women,children, and elderly people is the mark of a 'high standard in the Muslim world'? You must be kidding. Please tell me you are not this complacent and disillusioned Mike.

"When will you be happy, jeff, when there ar no more Muslims left?"

Hmmmm.....That may be a bit extreme at this point. Ask me this question after a few more terrorist bombings or if someone I love is killed in one, how I feel. Better yet, let me ask you this question if one of your loved ones are taken in an Islamic terrorist attack.

"Enough of your silly, anti-Muslim rants, m-kay? Go away and come back when you have something intelligent to say."

M-kay, I'm back and I've got LOTS more to say about this so don't expect me to go away any time soon.....unless you ban me, which I wouldn't doubt.

 
At 9:34 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Time to WAKE UP ONTARIO!
http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=9fda1076-1d1b-4cda-8e22-7dca871c8e62

 
At 10:30 PM, Blogger Kevin said...

Jeff,

Muslims serve in our army, police forces, as fire fighters, teachers, business people, etc. They are a constructive part of our society.

Some Muslims are terrorists, but that's not a comment on Islam as much as it is a problem with certain muslims.

kgp

 
At 8:41 AM, Blogger Sinead said...

It is silly to just say Muslim religion is bad. Did you know that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all bow to the same God? They're all monotheistic religions, and there aren't very many differences between them.

Infact, The beginning of Judaism and Islam was started by brothers according to the Bible.

The Koran is a holy text, which prohibits violence, sex before marriage and things similar and even the same to what the Torah and the New Testament prohibit and support.

Get your facts straight before you blame and entire religion because there are terrorists who were once Muslims.

 
At 8:51 AM, Blogger Mike said...

jeff,

You just proved the point I was trying to make. Much as you would like to believe it, not many Muslims follow a strict, literal interpretation of the Koran. Just as not many Christians do, as you stated.

The overwhelming majority of Muslims believe that "killing innocent women,children, and elderly people" is wrong and contrary to Allah. Its a very prominent part of the Koran. But you already know that, since you've read it right? That is why those Imams in the link I provided issued fatwas and spoke out against terrorism and OBL. You, like most Christians, don't appear to take a litteral view of the Bible, why do you think all Muslims take a litteral view of the Koran?

"I would follow the Pope(Ghandi) if I were Catholic but I'm Protestant.
I wasn't aware that Protestants needed a spiritual leader, other than Jesus'? Are we committing suicide bombings and are our societies and civilizations lying on the brink of ruin? Please answer that Mike."

Ok, comparing the Pope to Ghandi is laughable. I might have bought Martin Luther King, Jr. but certainly not the Pope. I wasn't aware Muslims needed another spiritual leader besides Muhammed either. It was YOU that linked to the silly article asking where the Muslim Ghandi was. A very very small number of terrorists, following a twisted version of Islam, do suicide bobmings. As for Islamic societies lying on the brink of ruin, you haven't been to Dubai or Oman or even Saudi Arabia lately have you (I have relatives that have worked in all 3 places)? They are some of the richest, most advanced societies in the world. Even repressive Iran is hardly on the brink of ruin. The only Muslim country on the brink of ruin is Iraq, and we can hardly blame the Iraqis for that, can we?

If one of my loved ones was killed in a terrorist attack, I would be angry with terrorists, not Muslims. It bears repeating Jeff, until it finally sinks in to your head: Not all Muslims are terrorists. Islamic terrorists are a very, very small fringe group following a twisted version of Islam that the vast majority of Muslims find reprehensible. Muslim terrorists are the equivilent of the KKK or the Aryan Nations in Christianity. Does the Klan or the Aryan Nations represent all of Christianity? Should I blame all of Christianity when the Army of God bombs an abortion clinic, or a disco? Should I blame all of Christianity when the Klan lynches someone? Should I blame all of Christianity when Eric Rudolph kills innocent people at the Atlanta Olympics? Of course not. And you shouldn't blame all Muslims for the actions of their fringe groups.

So what would you have Ontario do, jeff? How would you have us 'wake up'? What should we do in your opinion?

Enough of your sophistry. You clearly do not like Muslims and you are trying to justify your hatred with all this nonsense about terrorism being inherent in Islam.

As a former Christian, I know that Jesus said quite clearly in the New Testament that you follow "Love they neighbour as they self" "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "That which you do to the least of my bretheren, you do unto me". Now, he didn't say you could pick your neighbours or your bretheren and he didn't say it would be easy. Perhaps you need consult your conscience a little more on this and ask if you are really being a good Christian in this regard...

As a Buddhist, I find am guided by these same tenants and the understanding the irregardless of religion or place of origin we all want the same thing (to live in peace and freedom) and we are all interconnected to each other. Everything has consequences and you must wiegh those consequences carefully before speaking or acting.

A great man once said "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". I will not let the likes of you bring injustice on all of Islam (or any religion or group for that matter) just to make yourself feel better or safer or to justify your pre-existing xenophobic hatred.

You are wrong jeff.

Deal with it.

 
At 1:23 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Muslims who claim that Islam is a religion of peace and quote the Quranic verses where Muhammad keeps reminding that Allah is the Merciful and Forgiving, when shown these verses of Quran and the bloody legacy of the Prophet's wars and plunders, change their tactic and boast that "Yes, Islam countenances the use of violence under certain defined circumstances", as a cyber apologist wrote to me.

What are those "defined conditions"? Let us make it clear that we are not talking about using force against common criminals, murderers or rapists. We are talking about violence against innocent people who do not accept Muhammad's claim of prophethood and prefer to worship their own God, in their own way or worship none if they choose so.

Capital punishment by death has been eliminated in most of the civilized world. But even those countries that still practice it kill the convicts by lethal injection or another painless and humane way. They never torture them or maim them. Yet Muhammad prescribed the worst tortures for those who do not accept his hodgepodge of religion.

Q.5: 34 "Retribution of those, who wage war against ALLAH and HIS Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment."
What kind of sadistic god is this Allah!?

One question that I was never able to get an answer for is: if Allah wants to kill the unbelievers, why he dose not do it himself? It should be easy for him to kill them, maim them, burn them, and strike them with all sorts of disasters and calamities to satisfy his vengeful nature and bloodthirsty mood. Why instead he asks his messenger and his zealot devotees to do his dirty work? Is it perhaps that he is incapable to do it on his own? Or is it that he is no god at all but the figment of Muhammad's mind, a convenient scarecrow that would give the self acclaimed prophet unlimited power to plunder, rape and govern the lives and minds of those ignorant barbarians who believed in the concoction of his lies?

Muhammad claimed that the disbelief in Allah was the greatest crime punishable by death. Who benefited from this? He was the only contact between Allah and his foolhardy followers. Disobedience to him meant disobedience to God. Would really God care if people believed in Him or not? What does he get out it? Would really God's self esteem be hurt if these primates of the Earth did not recognize and praised him? Would he really be so offended that he would burn people eternally? That is an absurd preposition. But it gave Muhammad the same power as God to do anything he wished with no one to question him. He got the cart blanch to kill anyone, to demand his followers to go and fight even their own allies, relatives and friends and bring 20% of the booty to him. It gave him right to sleep with any number of women and choose the youngest and the prettiest of the captive women. The more he exalted Allah the more his power grew. Allah was an excuse that empowered a power hungry man to rise from poverty to absolute dominance and make him even dream of conquering the great kingdoms of Persia and Byzantine.


"Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious. Q.9: 24
He was no teacher of morality. Goodness or virtues had no meaning to him. His only preoccupation was making people submit their wills to his Allah, whom no one had access to except him. The more dreadful he painted his god, the more control he could exert over his followers. Allah was an alter ego for a control freak narcissist man hungry for power and adulation. His obsession to subdue people into accepting his god was such that he promised even the adulterers and thieves a place in Paradise if they accepted him while those who would not accept him would be burned in Hell even if they led a saintly life.

http://www.harrington-sites.com/Quran.htm

 
At 1:25 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

When did Jesus preach such vile hatred and terror?

 
At 2:05 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Jeff,

Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the SAME God.

So, since you asked:

Have you read in the Bible about God being pleased that babies were being dashed on rocks? Have you read how he had a bear kill a group of children for making fun of the prophet Elijah? They called him bald.

How about only 144, 000 getting into heavean in Revalations?

How about Jesus coming not in peace, but with a sword! How about him saying people should "sell all that they have" (Luke 18:22), neglect his family despite their importance in Jewish culture (Matthew 12:46-50), and predicting that his teachings would lead to brother killing brother (Matthew 10:21) and followers hating members of their own family (Luke 14:26). Anyone who did not renounce all that they had could not become a disciple, and anyone who rejected his teaching would receive severe punishment. He explicitly taught that anyone who didn't fully embrace his teachings would be subject to the severest of punishments - hellfire. He preached the principle of forgiveness of others who transgress, but he was adamant that anyone guilty of the simple act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could not possibly receive any sort of forgiveness - and odd stipulation for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. How can any act, especially the utterance of a few words, so harm an omnipotent and all-good god so as to prevent forgiveness?

Need I really go on? Almost every instance of your literal reading of the Koran has an equally repulsive and literal reading from the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments. Every holy book, including the Bible, has instances of barbarism and cruelty in it, which are repulsive and repugnant when read without the proper histovical context and understanding. Try judging a religion in its actions and modern interpretations, just as you yourself pointed out above in regard to Christianity.

The point, my dear jeff, is not what the holy books literal say, but the meaning behind the words and the interpretation of the meaning. Muslims today do not go around killing infidels just as Christians don't sell all they own and abandon their families to follow Jesus. Just as you pointed out above, the interpretation has changed, for both religions.

Now, all this shows me is that you are so hateful of Muslims that you will stop at nothing to justify that hatred - either to me or to yourself. You think you are right because you profess to be "Christian" and that Muslims are wrong. Does that justify your hatred and contempt for them? Do you remember, jeff, who it was that said "Judge not lest ye be judged?" Or "Turn the other cheek?"

Remember, jeff, "Pride goeth before a fall".

Once again jeff, you fail to grasp that it is not Islam that is wrong, but the twisted interpretation of it by a radical fringe. Check out the KKK for the Christian equivilent.

We3 are all human jeff and we should be judge by our actions, not by the content of a moldy old religious book written thousands of years ago in a different time,place and culture.

 
At 2:06 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Or, to get back on the topic of the thread, are you saying that because Islam is so evil, the murder of those 7,000 individuals is justified?

 
At 2:13 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the SAME God."

Wrong.

 
At 2:25 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"and anyone who rejected his teaching would receive severe punishment. He explicitly taught that anyone who didn't fully embrace his teachings would be subject to the severest of punishments - hellfire."

This did not mean that he nor his followers would mete out the justice upon the apostate. He would allow God to judge him. Big difference.

"He preached the principle of forgiveness of others who transgress, but he was adamant that anyone guilty of the simple act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit could not possibly receive any sort of forgiveness - and odd stipulation for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. How can any act, especially the utterance of a few words, so harm an omnipotent and all-good god so as to prevent forgiveness?"

Yes he stated blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I personally don't take that to mean words. I take that to mean suicide. There is much information and opinions about this on the web......

"Try judging a religion in its actions and modern interpretations, just as you yourself pointed out above in regard to Christianity."

Islam's does not seem to bear healthy fruit. Christianity does.(Best countries in the world to live are all Christian; not one Muslim country makes the list, not even Saudi Arabia, Dubai or Oman as you claim their wonderful places to be, I would've thought they would be on the list.)

Jesus never condoned such vile barbarism as Muhammed taught. And Muhammad was born 600 years later! Shouldn't society have progressed by this time, instead of regressed?

 
At 4:03 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Crusades, Witch Burnings, the Inqusition, conversion by the sword of most of the Natives of Central and South America - yep real good fruit.

Jeff, I will not be baited into an anti-Christian diatribe. The argument is largely irrelevant. If you read each book of the major religions, you will find lots of vile barbarism that is unacceptable by today's standards. Today most Christians don't think its ok to hold slaves, or have many wives or to kill your son because he disobeyed you. The same applies to Muslims. They do not, for the most part, interpret those barbaric parts of the Koran literaly. Why do simply keep ingoring this? You yourself keep telling me that passages in the Bible shouldn't be interpreted literaly, that they meant something else, yet you try to say that passages in the Koran ARE interprested literaly?

Jeff, you cannot even face the fact that Christians, Mulsims and Jews worship the same God - the God of Abraham - why should I even take you seriously anymore? Can you even read? My mention of Saudi Arabia, Dubai and Oman were not because I think they are "wonderful places to be" but because they are not on the "lying on the brink of ruin" as you put it. There is a big difference.


Jeff, I can only surmise from your diatribe that the murder of 7,000 Muslim men in Srebrenica is acceptable. That any actions taken against people simply because they are Muslim are acceptable. You believe that people are evil simply because they are Muslim. That is the very definition of bigotry. You are no better than the radical terrorist that set off the bombs and flew planes into buildings - a hate driven religious idealogue.

You of all people should be aware of the dangers of bigotry. Give your head a shake and stop being an ass.

 
At 9:02 PM, Blogger Sinead said...

""Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the SAME God."

Wrong."

You sir, are an idiot. It is right. They are the three MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIONS. The creators of Islam and Judaism were brothers born to the same father and different mothers, both worshipping God, only choosing to do it differently.

Unless (as I suspect) you choose to think differences within people and what they believe are ALSO wrong. I know how you could easily develope bigotry, I, having grown up in a very very Roman Catholic Scottish/Irish family with a strong hatred of Protestants, can sympathize. However, i am *atleast* a half intelligent human being and can decipher the fact that Protestants are people too. Their blood is red like mine, they cry like I do, yada yada yada. Don't hate because of differences, love because of them.

Your other reason for being blatantly ignorant is perhaps blaming it on Muslims is easy to do. Even though their religion is very similar to ours[Christianity], in core beliefs. I understand that you might think its easy to blame it all on a bunch of people who live far away. However, the bunch of people is not to blame. You cannot take 5 people out of a billion and generalize an entire religion based on their actions.

They are people, as disturbing as that is, no matter their race, creed or religion that is what they are.

I am curious, is it because you are racist you blame Islam? Or would you agree that a very terrible terrorist who happened to be Christian(however failed), say if he commited such an act as a huge terrorist attack, claiming it was in the name of Jesus Christ and Christianity, would you jump on the bandwagon that Christians and Christianity in general is radical, and that they are violent?

That's what you're doing now.

 
At 10:09 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"Today most Christians don't think its ok to hold slaves, or have many wives or to kill your son because he disobeyed you. The same applies to Muslims. They do not, for the most part, interpret those barbaric parts of the Koran literaly."


First, why do you keep bringing up Old Testament dogma? The New Testament never preached slavery, nor polygamy, nor killing your son for disobeying you? Please get your facts straight about Christian text, instead of painting it as something that it never was, Mike.
Unlike the reformation movement of the Catholic church, and the liberal attitudes towards discussion and interpretation of biblical text, the same cannot be said for Islam.
There has been very little if any reformation of Islamic thought and those that want to speak out or question Quranic doctrine, are fearful of reprisal and repercussions. You must stop deluding yourself into believing that all religions are the same. They most certainly are not.

Second, when I state "laying on the brink of ruin", I speak from experience, having travelled in the Middle East several years ago.


You state that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same god, as though this means we all should gather round the campfire and sing Kumbayah and swap tales. I wish this was the case but when I pull out the pork kebabs, I don't think I will have many 'happy campers'. Do you see what I'm saying. Sure, if you want to get historical we have the same God, but we each 'view' our God in very different ways. We all share monotheism, but we do not share the 'same' God.

 
At 10:14 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"I am curious, is it because you are racist you blame Islam? "

I am not racist. I love Christian Arabs.......

 
At 1:35 AM, Blogger Sinead said...

Then you are a bigot. Your hatred is because of their religion.

You are not a very good Christian, if infact you are at all.

 
At 8:22 AM, Blogger Mike said...

"The New Testament never preached slavery"

Except when Paul told the slaves to stay with their masters, or when he returned an escaped slave to his master, but I guess you just skipped over that part. Oh and before you start in with "but it says servant", the word servant, throughout the Bible, was the substitute for the word slave. It has only been in the last 50 to 100 years that is has been replaced by 'servant' for political resasons, to soften the image of Christianity. And while a great many abolitionist in the US were Christians, the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the largest churches in the US, let alone the South, found all sorts of Biblical justification for slavery and was definitely pro-slavery.

As for not paying attention to the Old Testament, if that is truly the case, why is it even included in every Christian Bible? Why is it that quotes from the Old Testament were used by the above Southern Baptist to justify slavery (along with the new testament)? Why is it that a lot of the Old Testament was used recently by those opposed to SSM to justify their stand against SSM. So I guess its only convenient for your type of Christian to accept the Old Testament when it suits you needs, eh? Hypocrite (oh, and you might want to look up what Jesus had to say about hypocrites).

And, no jeff, whether you want to believe it or not, Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the SAME, literally the exact same, God. That's why the Old testament (esentially the Hebrew Bible) is inlcuded in the Christian Bible. That is why the Koran shares many stories and characters with both the Christian and Jewish holy books (like say, Mary and Jesus for instance). Ask any jew, Christian or Muslim and they will tell you this is true. The differnces are in how they worship and whether they believe certain stories or not. For instance Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, yet they accept he existed. Muslims accept Jesus (called Issa in the Koran) as a prophet of God, but not the literal 'son' of God and not the last prophet - that was Mohammed. But on top of it all is the same God of Abraham. You should read you Bible some more jeff. I'm an atheist and a Buddhist and I know this stuff.

So jeff, enough with your distasteful attempts to use a religion of peace, love and compassion as your justification to hate and persectute others because they are not of that religion. That is wrong. You are a bigot. Your words here have proven it.

This entire blog entry was about 7,000 innocent people murdered in cold blood because of their religion. You used the comments to stir hatred and bash that religion. I can only assume you agree with their murder, that you think it ok to kill because they are not of your religion. That makes you just like the terrorists, jeff. You are evil and you are wrong.

Now go away, you are too pathetic to even discuss this with anymore.

 
At 8:28 AM, Anonymous Jeff said...

Bigot = A Conservative Winning An Argument With A Liberal

 
At 8:32 AM, Blogger Mike said...

Jeff stop being a fucking asshole and quoting garbage from Richard's blog.

No go away. You have not one this aregument. You have simply shown you true colours as a hatemonger that supports genocide.

I'm done being civil to you. Fuck off.

 
At 8:59 AM, Blogger Pete said...

" It was also born during the Crusades"

Learn your history. Islam began in the early 7th Century CE. The Crusades began at the very end of the 11th Century CE. That means there was over 450 years between the two. Know what you're talking about before you open your mouth, or in this case type. You'll appear more intelligent, less ignorant, and may be recieved better by those who do know more than you on one topic or another.

 
At 2:06 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/berg_killing.wmv

A surefire way to piss off Mike before I annihilate his argument. I just enjoy toying with you Mikey!

 
At 2:13 PM, Anonymous Jeff said...

"Muslim terrorists are the equivilent of the KKK or the Aryan Nations in Christianity."

The KKK blow themselves up killing innocent children, women and elderly? Equivalent is a pretty naive thing to say......

 
At 2:20 PM, Blogger Mike said...

What part of 'Fuck off' are you having problems understanding, jeff?

You are no longer welcome to spread your hate and lies here. You had your free speech. The bar is closed.

 

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